From Nursing to Entrepreneurship: Courtney Hogenson

Join us on this episode of CareCraft as we delve into the inspiring journey of Courtney Hogenson, a trailblazing RN who transitioned from the world of ICU nursing to entrepreneurship. From her early days at UCLA to founding multiple successful healthcare businesses in the home care, care management, and private duty space, Courtney shares her insights on bridging the gaps in healthcare and empowering patients to receive personalized care wherever they need it. Discover how Courtney's dedication to patient advocacy and her expertise as a care manager continue to shape the landscape of healthcare beyond traditional settings, offering families options in navigating the complexities of aging and chronic conditions.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:04] Ariadne: Hi, welcome to CareCraft. We're a podcast dedicated to the heart and science of care management. Today, we're honored to be joined by Courtney Hogenson, a Registered Nurse, Certified Aging Life Nurse Manager, and Advanced Legal Nurse Consultant. Courtney started her nursing career as an RN at UCLA in the cardiothoracic intensive care unit. She then went on to found multiple successful health care businesses, including Heal at Home, a non medical home care agency, RN Care Consultants, a care management firm, Heal at Home Nursing, a private nurse registry, and now is the founder and creator of Call-Light, a private duty nurse platform and placement service where care seekers can safely hire an experienced nurse or clinician for in home health care, anytime, anyplace. Thank you so much for joining us today, Courtney. It's so great to have you on the CareCraft podcast. I would love to get started and just understand a little bit more about your background and how you went from nursing to really owning your own businesses.

[00:01:04] Courtney: Yeah, well, thank you for having me. It's always nice to talk about what we do and when we can help other people learn more about it. It's just, you know, it's a win win. So I went into nursing right around the time I was about 30. It's a second career. And I just wanted to do something that felt More meaningful, more impactful.

[00:01:23] And I just thought, well, at least I'll know that I'm helping someone every day. And so I ended up at UCLA and the cardiothoracic ICU. And the reason why I chose that very type A environment is I thought I would continue in school. I thought maybe I'd become a nurse practitioner. I thought maybe I'd become a nurse anesthetist.

[00:01:41] And I knew if I started in that unit, I could kind of, you know, build my own path. And I loved being in that unit been in less than two years of being a nurse there. I started to recognize all these gaps in our health care system with my patients and They kept asking me for assistance, like, you know, filling the gaps between hospital and home.

[00:02:03] And they said, Oh gosh, if we had someone like you, a nurse who was helping us navigate this and who would help us get home, like we feel like we would be in better hands. And so I started my first business in 2012 and it was called Heal at Home Care. And it was a caregiving agency, non medical and just being a nurse.

[00:02:23] I Recognize that I was able to have conversations and doctor's appointments and in the hospitals and just able to advocate for patients in such a different way. And it got to the point where if I had a patient in the ER or in the hospital, you know, obviously the patient wanted to be at home and the caregivers wanted the patient to be at home so that they could be working.

[00:02:44] So it made sense to me to start showing up at the ER or at the doctor's appointments and the families started to recognize such a value in that. They saw how I was able to speak the language and make things happen and expedite discharge. And they said, my goodness, could we hire you to start coming to appointments with mom or dad?

[00:03:04] And so I leaned into care management. Didn't know anything about it. Hadn't heard of it. I joined the Aging Life Care Association pretty quickly. And then I, you know, spent time doing care management and got certified. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I want to be really good at it and I want to be the best.

[00:03:22] So I took the time to get the training and the mentorship and took the exams and all those things. And care management really has been like the most meaningful work I've ever done as a nurse. I've done a couple of different things, but just being the expert on your patients, you know, there were times I would have anywhere from five to 10 patients and depending on their acuity or what their needs were, I would go maybe on a weekly basis.

[00:03:55] If there was a, an emergency or a crisis, obviously I'd be more involved. But I had these families that were out of town and often I was the boots on the ground for them. I was the eyes and the ears, and I was the unbiased professional who was not in the family. You know, families would say. How can you do this work?

[00:04:17] I don't know how you do it. And I always said, it's not my family. If it was my family, I'd probably be crying in the corner too. So it's just as a nurse and being a patient advocate, it just really like nurses are so primed for doing this kind of work and their, you know, healthcare people really want to be at home these days.

[00:04:39] So it's like, if we can meet them where they want to be and where they are you know, it's a win win situation.

[00:04:44] Ariadne: That's incredible. What did that look for you kind of at day zero when you were making the transition from leaving, presumably a full time nursing position and starting your own business?

[00:04:55] Courtney: Yeah, that's a great question. And what I always tell people is don't look at where I am now, because it looked very different from when I started. And one of the things, I tell other nurses or practitioners that are thinking of doing something like that. My biggest piece of advice is don't quit your day job yet, you know, hang on to that job security, the benefits, all those things.

[00:05:19] So what I did is I switched over to the float team. I was on the UCLA ICU float team, and I would sign up for a shift a week or a couple of shifts a month, and they were very, very flexible so that if an emergency popped up, I could give them at least four hours notice and they would get someone else to cover.

[00:05:40] Of course, I never did that because it felt just so wrong to leave someone hanging. But it was a really great opportunity for me to slowly build up my practice and get a good number of clientele and, cause I really needed to have enough billable hours before I could start paying myself.

[00:05:59] And so I hung on to that job as long as I could to, to like the moment where I just said, I got to let it go, or I'm never going to make it to the next level. And so I, I left in 2016 and I haven't worked in a clinical setting ever since.

[00:06:17] Ariadne: Wow, that's awesome. And you did start multiple businesses, but sounds like they all kind of worked in conjunction with each other.

[00:06:25] Were they all operational at the same time? Or was there a period where you said, Okay, I'm kind of going to stop focusing so much on home care and just go all in care management?

[00:06:35] Courtney: Yeah. So the first thing was the non medical home care, the caregiving, and then that gradually led into care management.

[00:06:43] And I was like, Oh my goodness, this is my jam. This is my zone of genius. I'm really good at this. I can help, you know, build teams of caregivers and nurses, and I can fill up the pillbox once a week. I can schedule all the doctor's appointments. I can be the boots on the ground for the family. So that was really the most pivotal work that I did.

[00:07:03] And it was sort of the integral piece of everything else that I did. Because as a care manager, you're really the patient quarterback. You're really the navigator. You're the go to for everyone. And so all of the things that I did kind of came out of that. So, you know, families loved having me at doctor's appointments as a nurse and being that expert.

[00:07:27] And then I started encountering families that said, Well, what could be better than having a nurse here once a week? How about having a team of nurses around the clock? And so I kept encountering families that were requesting that. And I thought, Well, this doesn't really exist. You know, there are a few agencies, there are a few registries in the private duty space.

[00:07:49] And so I started reaching out to them and it was kind of hit or miss because it wasn't me doing the vetting, you know, it was someone else doing the vetting. And so it got to the point where my client said, we would rather pay you to vet these people and know who they are and be able to manage them rather than be, you know, outsourcing to someone that's kind of hit or miss.

[00:08:11] Sometimes they would send a nurse with a pulse, you know? So I started Heal at Home Nursing in 2018 with another nurse care manager. And we said, we'll keep it on the down low. We're not going to market. We're not going to advertise. We're going to continue doing our care management practices and we'll just do the private duty nursing for our clients.

[00:08:32] But it took off because nurses want to work with nurses and, you know, people just wanted to have our nurses in their homes. And so it really took off. And so I kind of had to pivot a little bit and lean into that a little bit more. And that company got acquired. Four years later for a good amount of money.

[00:08:52] And so now I'm really going back to my care management roots and I'm still helping families navigate that whole process, but I'm also helping other nurses and clinicians learn how to set up their own care management practices and learn how to set up their own concierge nursing, if that's what they want to do, because there's so much they can do outside of the hospital. And, you know, I've talked to my other nurse leader, friends and innovators, and we all feel pretty strongly that there's not a lot we can do within the system right now, like the hospital system, the healthcare system, the insurance, the for profit, it's one of those things where we don't have as much impact on that side, but when you're outside of those, we have so much impact where, you know, we, we can help people navigate.

[00:09:41] We know the language. We know. I always tell people it's kind of like going into court without representation or an attorney, but this is more important because it's sickness and health and life and death. And, you know, you really need someone who speaks the language and who's going to look out for you, you know, be an expert in you.

[00:10:00] Ariadne: That expertise is critical. A lot of individuals we talked to deal a lot with older populations or aging populations and just the complexity that comes from, you know, changes in health status and multiple chronic conditions. Is that something that you've also seen kind of specialization in with what you've been building or is it kind of across the board that you're supporting families?

[00:10:24] Courtney: You know, it kind of goes across the board. You know, it depends on what the families need. Most of my clients and families come through word of mouth. They're often coming from a concierge doctor or, you know the, the hospital system or somebody who already knows me. And so I'm just really, I try to meet them wherever they are.

[00:10:45] And what was so cool about being a care manager is It didn't matter to me what agency they went with or what caregiver or what company. I just, I mean, if they already had a team of people that was working, the last thing I wanted to do was rock the boat and like change that up. So I never. I always just kind of went where they wanted to be and what their goals were.

[00:11:07] And it could be any ages. I think my sweet spot was definitely older adults. I was often reached out to by their adult children because they wanted their parent or parents to still have some independence and autonomy, but they also didn't want to be worried and they didn't want to have to send them into a place that they didn't want to be.

[00:11:26] So it was sort of like a compromise where I was able to be the non family member who could show up if something was going on or they needed someone to check. And I could save those adult children a lot of, you know, worry and a lot of unnecessary flights to see if everything was okay. I could just pop in

[00:11:46] my goal is really to give them their autonomy and their independence and let them live their life as much as they can. And then I'm just here to support them if, and when they need it. So there are times when I put myself out of a job and I say, I hope you never need me again, but if you do, I'm here,

[00:12:04] Ariadne: That's a wonderful philosophy. Are you still actively care managing or has your time been fully devoted to building call lights?

[00:12:12] Courtney: I've been doing mostly Call-Light, but I have had families reaching out to me and just still needing more of that navigation. And so I am taking on care management clients from time to time. As far as doing like the boots on the ground every day that's not really where I am right now, but I'm definitely someone who helps build those teams. So I've had people reach out to me recently. Someone said, can you help me find someone like you in Columbus, Ohio? Or can you help me find someone like you in, you know, Kansas City. And so what I do is I reach out to my network of thousands of other nurses and care managers.

[00:12:53] And, you know, we are sort of those people that link everyone together. And so I just say, Hey, do you know anyone that's taking new patients in this area? Do you know someone that's really great and reputable? And I found that that accountability factor is so key to be able to say, Hey, call Megan at this company. Here's her number. I know her. And then that way you're not just Googling somebody. You're not just trying to, you're, you really have like a point of contact and some, some accountability of like, that person's going to take care of you. And if they don't, or if they can't help you, I'll find someone else who will.

[00:13:34] Ariadne: Care manager is a very generic sounding title. I feel like for all that it encompasses and the importance of the work. So have you found when people are reaching out to you or families that they are aware exactly of what's kind of your expertise and how a care manager really can benefit them?

[00:13:51] Courtney: I often find that we are the best kept secret. I often find that people say, I wish I knew you existed. You could have helped me through X, Y, Z, but I often find they don't know that we exist and they, they almost are just perplexed. Like, why doesn't everyone have someone like this? But I do find that a lot of times there are different names for things.

[00:14:18] Sometimes we call ourselves geriatric care managers. Sometimes we call ourselves patient advocates. Sometimes we call ourselves navigators. So there's so many different things. There are some people that come from a social work background. I come from a nursing background and I, you know, specialize in cognitive impairment, like Alzheimer's and things like that.

[00:14:37] But there are other care managers that come from like a physical therapy background or a gerontology background. So it's just, there's someone for everyone. I feel like, and depending on what the client's needs you know, I can't do everything. And I would be dishonest saying that, Oh, I do everything great.

[00:14:55] You know, it's like, if you do everything, you're not going to do anything really that well. So I try to focus on what I'm really good at. And then if it's something outside of my scope or my expertise, I try to line them up with someone who will really fit them and match them.

[00:15:10] Ariadne: So now with Call-Light, you're really that platform to connect right families with clinicians that that can help support their needs. Can you tell me a little bit about that launch and how that process?

[00:15:22] Courtney: Call-Light launched in October of 2023. And, you know, of course, our first client was a repeat client, someone who had needed 24/7 care around the clock for many years, and they were moving to a different state. And, you know, the family called me and said, we heard you're doing Call-Light now.

[00:15:40] We're so excited. Can you help us? And I said, okay, well, I would love to. What was so great about this family is they still had four of those nurses that I had helped them hire. And it just, you know, that they take good care of the nurses and you know, that the nurses feel good about it. Good. And so that's important when you're doing one on one in home family situations.

[00:16:01] And so the family said, well, we're planning to move to Tennessee. And I was very honest with them. I said, well, as of today, at that time, I have zero nurses in Tennessee. So I don't want to set you up for any, you know, expectations that I can't fulfill. I'll help you find someone though. So sometimes it's me referring them to an agency owner or registry owner or somebody that is there because I think it's so important to have boots on the ground like I don't feel like I can service someone thousands of miles away as well as someone who's there can but it didn't seem like that existed where they were and they were honest with me and said, we're not having a lot of luck.

[00:16:41] We've reached out to a couple of places and it's kind of crickets. And so I asked them how much time they had. And they told me we have about two months before we're planning to move. And I just thought, well, if I can't do this in two months, if I get open a new market in two months, what am I doing? This would be a good, you know, learning scenario.

[00:16:59] And so we helped that family out. And, you know, eventually I did find a really reputable local agency that I was able to kind of partner with. You know, I still get calls from different states and maybe we don't have Call-Light nurses there yet, but as we start to build and the momentum of, you know, we have like 3, 500 nurses around the United States right now.

[00:17:21] It's a matter of time before these nurses, these nurses say, I want to keep doing this. This is really great because I found nurses that they get into private duty and they say, this is what I signed up for. This is what I wanted to do. I've never been able to find this kind of work. And so I just think, you know, we're poised people want to be cared for at home and nurses want to get out of that system. So it's sort of like the perfect opportunity to help families.

[00:17:47] Ariadne: You talked a little bit just now about kind of vetting the families and the experience for the nurses and then previously about, you know, really needing to vet the clinicians and make sure it's a good experience.

[00:17:57] What does that process look like and how do you make sure that it is a good fit?

[00:18:02] Courtney: I've found that it needs a little more hand holding than sometimes I would assume I think oh nurses know how to do this and nurses can navigate that sometimes nurses don't get paid if they end up or they end up getting canceled and then you know things happen so it can go both ways.

[00:18:18] And so I think it's really important to have that accountability factor and you really need to know who these people are. Because, you know, you don't want to hire a nurse from Craigslist. You also don't want to take a job from Craigslist. God loves Craigslist, but not for this kind of thing. Like it's just, it's too important and it's too vulnerable of a population to do that.

[00:18:38] And so we're really, really good about checking professional references. Sometimes a nurse will look really great on paper. And then we go and look up their license. And there were some things in the past that happened or X, Y, Z. So it's really important to do our homework on the nurses, make sure they have malpractice and liability insurance for their own protection and also for the family.

[00:19:03] And then on the other side, you know, we check with the family because they could have the best nurse on earth, but maybe it's not the best fit for their family or for that situation. So it's so important to get the gauge of like the family's needs. Do they want a chatty Kathy? Do they want a nurse who's gonna, you know, just kind of be seen and not heard.

[00:19:25] So, yeah. It's really important to match up the personalities and there's so many factors that go into it. So it's, it's just, we get to the point where we know the nurses and we know the families. My favorite cases are those longterm ones where you end up working with them for years and years. And so when it's one of those cases, you really get to know and they really work like a team.

[00:19:48] You know, it ends up being four to six nurses if it's 24 seven and You know, you get to build your own team of nurses. And so I find nurses come out of the woodworks and say, Oh, I've gotten a nurse friend who'd be great on this case. And so that's how we get a lot of our nurses is from the nurses that we already know, and we like, and we trust.

[00:20:09] Ariadne: That's incredible. When someone's weighing, right, if they are a nurse and they have different options, whether it's to stay in the health system, to maybe go into more private duty, like through Call-Light to maybe go into more of a care management type role. I guess what's your advice and how you like weigh those options?

[00:20:26] And, and for you, who's kind of done all of them what do you think are the pros and cons?

[00:20:31] Courtney: You know, I think it depends on where you are geographically. When I did all of these starting out, I was in Los Angeles. And so it was a very large metropolitan area with, you know, big hospital systems, lots of nurses in the area, lots of people who needed care.

[00:20:50] And so what I, what I did that was so good and I'm so glad I did it was I just kept seeing where opportunities would come up and I would say, I haven't done that before, but I think I can and someone was willing to pay for it and they found value in it. So I just started to hone in on what I enjoyed doing, what people were asking for, and what I thought could build up.

[00:21:16] So a lot of times I wouldn't say no just because I hadn't done it, you know, I'd get, Hired by a judge who said, Can you come in and do an assessment on this patient and then type up your, you know, professional recommendations of where this person should live, what this should look like and. And so I just kept saying yes to things that maybe I just was honest I said I've never done that before but if you tell me what you need I could probably do that

[00:21:46] Ariadne: Basically you kind of followed where there was pull for your own services. And, and really, you know, that's taken you in many different places now. So that's awesome.

[00:21:54] Courtney: Yeah. I was just open and, and I think just these opportunities kept coming up and I wouldn't say no, I would try it. And so it just kept me going down this path of like, there's so much that nurses can do and that other healthcare professionals can do outside of the box, you know?

[00:22:14] So I feel like in nursing and in healthcare, you can try things out and, you know, ask for mentors, ask for people that have been there. You know, I was really fortunate to find people that were a little bit ahead of me that had a similar background. And. You know, I often have nurses come to me for mentoring or coaching and I'm happy to help them, you know, get on the right path of like, here's, here's what I did.

[00:22:36] Here's what I would do differently if I knew what I know now. And, you know, there's so much that we can do to help each other. And I feel like if there were more of us out there, just the world would have such a better healthcare system in general.

[00:22:50] Ariadne: What would you do differently if you were doing it all over again?

[00:22:54] Courtney: Man, if I was doing it all over again, I would have started as a nurse a little bit younger. Before I got married, before I, you know, had a family, I would have probably done some traveling like travel assignments just to try and see what different healthcare settings were like. But I think what I wouldn't do differently was like, I just kept going where I was needed and I just kept doing those and it led me to like, oh, this is, I'm so good at this people pay me for it and they find value in it and I'm helping people like there was one point where I would say, I can't believe families are paying me to spend time with these older adults who have the most amazing life stories.

[00:23:38] And this is a dream. Like maybe for some people that sounds miserable, but for me, I was like, are you kidding? I love older people. We could talk for days.

[00:23:51] Ariadne: That's very cute. And you really kind of started your own organizations. And so you also had to not just do the work itself, but, you know, all the administration that comes from running an organization like the billing and the insurance and the legal stuff.

[00:24:07] What was that experience like for you? Was it overwhelming in the beginning?

[00:24:11] Courtney: The first thing I did, I just did a lot of research. I Googled a lot of things. I picked up books. I, I knew that I didn't know everything. And that's my biggest piece. Another big piece of advice for people that are starting out is ask for help.

[00:24:27] Ask for support. You can't be good at everything. And so, you know, try to do as much as you can in the beginning, but then once you're able to outsource, ask for help. At like a reasonable price and someone who's good at it. Then start offloading those things that are not your forte like maybe the billing maybe the legal like, I was smart enough to know that I needed an attorney from the beginning You know, and it was a little bit of money.

[00:24:54] It's not cheap But if you can find a friend or family member, that's an attorney or knows an attorney people are often really wanting to help healthcare professionals, especially like, I can't tell you how many nurses have said they found attorneys and people that would do it pro bono or very low cost because they, they recognize the need.

[00:25:15] And so I think just asking for help and recognizing that you don't know everything and you never will know everything like we need support and we have to be able to ask for help when we need it.

[00:25:26] Ariadne: What about the kind of marketing and tech aspects of the business? Was that also kind of something that you just learned from others as you went or there was a real learning curve there?

[00:25:36] Courtney: Yeah, the, the marketing kind of came with the territory. It's not everyone's favorite thing. I didn't mind it so much because I found that there weren't a lot of nurses doing what I was doing. And I was able to step into that role and speak on it in a very different way than your typical marketer, you know?

[00:25:56] And I often found that when people were looking for a care manager or looking for those services. The moment they found out I was a nurse, it was like a game changer. They just were like, Oh, okay. You speak the language, you get it. And I don't know. Nurses are kind of natural teachers in a way. And I think so we become very approachable, but I would say the marketing, I kind of went out there and did it.

[00:26:20] I was like the boots on the ground and I bootstrapped from the beginning. The tech stuff has gotten easier because there are some low code things and no code things. There's like Squarespace and Kajabi. But you know, I never became like a tech expert you just have to ask for help when you need it and know what you don't know.

[00:26:40] And it's okay. You're not going to know everything. Nobody knows everything, you know?

[00:26:44] Ariadne: That's so true. And yeah, I agree completely. There's so many more tools that are out there. If anything, I feel like it's kind of become the opposite now where there's so many tools that it's a little overwhelming to know which one makes sense in the given context and, and which one you should use over another.

[00:27:02] Courtney: Yeah. And I think sometimes you just have to make a decision. It's like you could sit there and spin your wheels and like, should I do this or should I do that? And sometimes you just need to, you know you know, sometimes you try it, test it, see if it works, hopefully not spend a lot of money doing it.

[00:27:17] But like, you know, sometimes you can wait for something to become perfect. And it just never is going to become perfect. So you just have to start, you know, wherever you are and where you can.

[00:27:26] Ariadne: And if there are clinicians listening that are looking for new opportunities, are there things that you are looking for at Call-Light?

[00:27:34] Courtney: Yeah, I mean, they can come to our website. They can go to www.call-light.Com and it's C A L L hyphen L I G H T. You know, they can reach out to me personally. I'm happy to do, I do coaching, I do mentoring you know, and it, when people need a little bit more, just even navigation or support, like how, how should I do this, how would I navigate that, you know, there's, there are people like me that have already done it.

[00:28:01] And you might as well ask us. Rather than try to, you know, reinvent the wheel or start something from scratch. If you don't have to you know, find someone who's already doing what you think you want to do and start asking them questions and see if they'll mentor you or coach you and, you know, don't be afraid to ask for that.

[00:28:18] Cause I really love giving back and, you know, I felt like people really gave that to me and I just feel like I need to keep paying it forward.

[00:28:25] Ariadne: If there's one thing I've learned, it's that care managers are very giving. I have not encountered any. It seems to be you know, par for the course in this career.

[00:28:35] And where do you see the industry going? You know, I'm curious. Obviously, you've kind of talked about seeing a lot of unmet needs and families directly coming to ask you for type of support. Like, do you see that growing in the future? And and where do you see that?

[00:28:48] Courtney: I definitely see the need growing, especially as people are aging and living longer with more comorbidities, more medications, all sorts of things.

[00:28:58] And because people are really trying to age in place, you know, a lot of people want to stay at home. And I think because we have more care managers and clinicians and nurses out there, I think we're able to help them do it a little bit more easily. But I also think it's going to stay very boutique and very, like, you want to know who's coming into your home and you want to know you can trust that person.

[00:29:22] So I don't see corporations really coming in and taking over care management. I just don't think that's what families want. And I don't think that's what clients or care managers want. I think we really like to, you know, have our arms wrapped around and, and do this, like, you know, boutique work with these families where it's a relationship.

[00:29:45] It's not just a client and, you know, the transaction, it's not just a transactional thing. It's very you know, organic and dynamic the way that you grow. So I do feel like there's a huge need for it. And it's just a matter of teaching everyday people that we exist and, you know, letting them know there are associations they can go and search for people and, and.

[00:30:10] Yeah, so I think there's a big opportunity and I think there's going to be a big, a big push for this in the next couple of years. For sure.

[00:30:19] Ariadne: Definitely awareness I've seen growing at least in my personal experience. I also, I mean, from a reimbursement standpoint, I know now there's some additional reimbursement that providers can get for you know, chronic complex case management.

[00:30:34] I guess, how do you see the roles differing and kind of the support you might get through a care manager, either from your health plan or your provider versus someone that you really like hire yourself.

[00:30:44] Courtney: Yeah, I mean, I would say if you're able to hire someone and afford someone yourself, go that route because that person will be looking out for you no matter what.

[00:30:54] If you, if you're using someone through a provider or through an insurance plan or something, just know that they work for that company ultimately. And so look, I think in a perfect world, you'd have both. I think it makes sense. Like if someone, if I ended up going to the hospital, that I would be assigned a care manager within that system who's going to follow my case and know where I was going and when I was going to be discharged and what that looked like. And in a perfect world, there would be someone on the outside, an unbiased person that also was an expert in me and that knew it and could say, Hey, let's communicate and let's try to get this person back home if that's where they want to be. And just, you know, I just found there's so many gaps in our healthcare system, and if you can find ways to make them connect all these little pieces and silos, then, you know, you just have more continuity of care, you have better outcomes.

[00:31:53] Ariadne: Last question would love to know where you see or what Call-Light to be five years from now?

[00:31:59] Courtney: Man, five years from now, I'd love to have Call-Light locations around the country, around the world where there are other clinicians. You know, I'm a little biased, but I would rather, I would really love to have RNs or teams of RNs and each of those locations who know all those nurses and can build those teams for families.

[00:32:19] So that families can go and hire their own nurses. Whenever they need them and it won't be, you know, it will be more efficient. It will be, you know, more accountable and just easier. Like right now, how do people find nurses? Do you go hang out at, you know, change of shift and look for nice people in scrubs and ask if they live near you?

[00:32:40] It just doesn't, there's nothing out there right now that is affordable and efficient and transparent right now. So I really won't call it too. Have their own, and I want it to be like a big corporation. I want it to be very boutique y, stay that way. Cause you know, you want to know who you're dealing with and you want to know who's coming into your home.

[00:33:01] Ariadne: I think there's something to be said about just kind of growing organically as well, as opposed to sometimes big corporations, like, you know, they have a lot of resources, but then that also leads to a lot of incentives to grow faster, maybe than they can really support.

[00:33:16] Courtney: Yeah, bigger's not always better.

[00:33:19] Ariadne: That's true. Well, thank you so much, Courtney, for being on today. It was so interesting to hear about your career and all that you've accomplished. And really appreciate all the advice that you were able to share for other care managers or nurses that might be trying to figure out where they want to go in their careers as well.

[00:33:35] Courtney: Thank you for having me. And, you know, we just need to tell more people that we exist and also show other clinicians that we can do this. People actually find value in it. They want it. And you know, there's a big need.

[00:33:48] Ariadne: Yeah. Thank you so much.

[00:33:50] Thank you.